Curse

Dax · Nov 13, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

This may be a little off topic, but I for one think "/signed" and "/unsigned" is really ..well silly.

Ok proceed....

Loch · Nov 13, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

A bone dragon(i think that's what they're called) should hardly blink if I use firestorm on him.

Why are you even using firestorm in the first place if you think it's doing nothing? Is it because you're echo-nuking and it'll add up over time? Then it's effective for it to move its arse.

Ensign's right; there are so many better fire skills than AoE Damage-over-time spells. But fire magic in general is mediocre for damage; by the time Orion and I cast firestorm, the enemy is almost dead from Reyna's, Stefan's, and Little Thom's attacks. My best bet is to hit enemies with Incendiary Bonds, Fireball, and Meteor. Even then, the damage isn't spectacular, but it hits more than one enemy and Meteor knocks them down.

And I agree with Ensign's comment about AoE DoT's being really off balance in terms of PvP vs PvE. When I first started PvP, the message I got from my guild mates was, "Don't bother with AoE DoT's, the damage sucks and people just escape them." Fire was the ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY attribute line in the WHOLE GAME that worked decently in PvE but was almost unusable in PvP. The only reason fire worked was because the enemies let it work. If you got into the situation where 14 enemies all gathered together and didn't see the ele, fire worked okay. Because it worked so well in those few situations, ArenaNet had to give the spells high energy costs, long cast times, and gross recharge times. Well, now it's the best time to buff Firestorm, Searing Heat, Rodgort's Invocation... well, any fire spell with high everything-but-damage.

entropy · Nov 13, 2005, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Ensign I agree with you on many things in PvP but I believe you are wrong in this because:
1)They don't gather up for firestorm which isn't my big issue. It's the simple fact that it is still laughably easy yet the missions take longer because people can't just aoe nuke everything. I simply don't have time to do all the missions the way anet "intended" me to do it. I would like to level my characters to unlock skill as faction points still need to be boosted IMO.
2) its not the fact that fire is "bad" but it did take a huge hit.
3) it still does not help balance in the sense that other classes are needed for missions. The holy trinity ftw. I usually like a mesmer and necro in my group but they are rarely ever actually needed. This is because anet still hasn't fixed the fundamental problem which is that griffons, and minos are all in packs making it so that if you aggro all of them and nothing else they are all melee and you can simply "farm" them. By adding different variety of classes in the groups you could make it so that mesmers are needed to shatter enchants and stop the enemy monks from healing the party.
4) I've tried all the classes on my ele an well liked earth the best but some people like their respective classes. Firestorm got hit hard and is now about the most useless skill ever... 2 seconds of dmg with 8 seconds of a clear area. Balthazars aura at 0 smiting just keeps those aataxes away from me

. I can farm 1 of any monster with imy ranger. Meteor shower isn't great as they run out after 1 meteor I believe.
5) anet has this agenda to make PvE into PvP. Sure a challenge once ina while would be nice but there is a balance in between them. PvE has lvl 20+ mobs. you are always outnumbered which is where aoe's come into play. PvE ai's cheat as in almost unlimited energy pools and so on. Their timing is pretty good.

oh well if this is here to stay I'm out of PvE

GWGuru · Nov 13, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

oh well if this is here to stay I'm out of PvE

if this is here to stay I'll be playing more PvE...and I'm sure im not the only PvP player with that attitude

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Why are you even using firestorm in the first place if you think it's doing nothing? Is it because you're echo-nuking and it'll add up over time? Then it's effective for it to move its arse.

Ensign's right; there are so many better fire skills than AoE Damage-over-time spells. But fire magic in general is mediocre for damage; by the time Orion and I cast firestorm, the enemy is almost dead from Reyna's, Stefan's, and Little Thom's attacks. My best bet is to hit enemies with Incendiary Bonds, Fireball, and Meteor. Even then, the damage isn't spectacular, but it hits more than one enemy and Meteor knocks them down.

And I agree with Ensign's comment about AoE DoT's being really off balance in terms of PvP vs PvE. When I first started PvP, the message I got from my guild mates was, "Don't bother with AoE DoT's, the damage sucks and people just escape them." Fire was the ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY attribute line in the WHOLE GAME that worked decently in PvE but was almost unusable in PvP. The only reason fire worked was because the enemies let it work. If you got into the situation where 14 enemies all gathered together and didn't see the ele, fire worked okay. Because it worked so well in those few situations, ArenaNet had to give the spells high energy costs, long cast times, and gross recharge times. Well, now it's the best time to buff Firestorm, Searing Heat, Rodgort's Invocation... well, any fire spell with high everything-but-damage.

I'm still using the small fire AOE cause that's all I have for Aoe.
I don't know the mechanics of echo nuking, I'm a noob for the lingo here, sorry.

I don't plan on using a whole bunch of AOE's because it'll be pointless and boring, on, maybe two in my menu max.

I'm not going for that leet max damage fast killer farmer, that everyone seems to think everyone else does. I'm going for a range of fun skills, untill i get tired or overpowered for the area of the map that I'm in, then I'll work on crawling my way to the next town, or hitch a short ride with a runner for 1k, if I just can't manage to do it with the mentally handicapped henchies.
I play for fun a couple hours a day when I have the time.
I'm certainly not the guy to go look for max power builds on websites. The most I'll do is browse skills for any given class, so I can see if I'd want to try it.

I don't agree that PVP should be similar to PvE, in that they are two different concepts. PVP it's always equal numbers for example.

I don't think that you should have to change the way you play if you've found something you liked, because other people abused it. Figure out a way to catch the people that are doing the abusing and ban them.

I'm only arguing this patch because the main site advertises:
"allowing you to create specialized characters or to have fun experimenting with profession combinations, skills, and attributes until you create the hero that suits you best."

7 months in roughly, and some people are forced to restructure something they found that suited them best. That's hardly supportive of players that paid 50$(or however much) after reading many great reviews. 3 weeks after I get the game, and it's whole design is altered by one little trigger.

I'm done arguing on these topics. I did post a new topic, a possible way to bridge those opposed, and those supporting the latest patch. I hope it's taken seriously and calmly by those around here, ideally it'll be seen by dev's and taken into consideration.

By alot of the reactions around here I don't think it'll be taken calmly at all.

Anyways, I'm out.

Shifty Geezer · Nov 13, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I think some people are making assumptions about how the game is being played. I don't farm, or do any jiggery-pokery. I just play PvE, working through the missions. The game was bought to play wtih 2 friends, and when they're not online I play with henchies. I don't play in human parties, and so the options for tactics and strategies is limited. It's all very well saying 'blackout the healers, Hex break or remove hexes cast on you, snare and knockdown melee enemies...but when the only person with those skills in your group is you, and you only have eight to choose from from a subset of two professions, which likely won't include all the skills you need, that's kinda tricky. You also find that your henchies are non-too bright. Henchies attack the person I attack, which means I have to select an enemy and attack them. Not cast a spell. If I cast a spell at a mob, the henchies just watch. And if I change the person I'm attacking, the hencies ttarget them too. Playing a Ranger with Poison Arrows, when trying to target lots of different enemies to spread the poison around the Henchies break off and run around chasing after my targets. I can't set the fighters to target the healer while I spread poison amongst the enemy warriors. Neither can I start a fight with spells. If I lead with Rotting Flesh and follow up with Suffering, my henchies stand and watch. I have to decide who they're to fight and attack, and then get back to spell-casting.

If I give an example of where my frustrations are most felt, I left teh Ice Caves of Sorrow for a wander to try out the Mesmer Skills of a profession change (I've been an Ele/Mo up until the desert and am trying out some alternatives). With a full compliment of henchmen, all but the Enchanter, the first critters I found were a spread of maybe 20 lvl22 Ice Imps. I use the few Mesmer spells I've collected to cancel out a few Ice Imp spells, but cannot stop the rest of them blitzing me and the rest of the team. As I'm the only one in the group with interrupts it becomes impossible to interrupt all 20 Ice Imps. Here's a perfect example of where imbalance is needed. If the game is going to pit 8 lvl 20 characters against 20 lvl 22 characters, the only they can win is by using tactics and strategy and exploits. Throughout much of the game recently I've used Meteor Shower, Meteor and Maelstrom to keep my Henchmen alive, stopping spellcasters. It's not proper interrupts as these spells take so long to cast, but it's all that's available to an Ele/Mo. But when the enemy are all spread out, outnumber the available skills I have to interrupt them, and use spell-interrupts to render my few spells useless, there's nowt I can do. If I beat a hasty retreat it's not uncommon for the henchmen at the back to either stay in the fight or get picked off, and if I'm not to leave them to die I have to turn and fight, so options for tactics like traps can become very limited. Also it's all very well saying 'use such and such a skill' like Mantras to protect against interrupts, but if I don't have those skills, I can't use them! Discussion on forums seems to invariable be between veterans who have all the skills and can make any build they want. If you've only got the skills from quests and trainers, and no Elite's yet, and are nowhere near the areas where needed skills are obtainable, surely the game needs to be such that you can still succeed? Or if you're trying out secondary professions, only have a few platinum pieces because you don't farm, and can only buy a few skills from trainers but aren't sure which profession to invest in, you're not in a position to acquire some skills to see if they work. GW was advertised as requiring smarts to complete, not grind. That means I should be able to use the skills offered me without having to spend many hours accruing wealth or hunting down Boss monsters to get the needed skills to complete certain tasks or areas.

Now the experience of people who play in groups is likely to be very different, and making it harder for groups would make sense. There's been parts in the game I've found very easy and thought how dull it would be playing with a group of high-level human players. It's perhaps for these people that the changes were made, and maybe they're important and beneficial to the game experience, but making the monsters smarter only makes an already tough for single players game nigh on impossible it seems. Unless ANet want to force cooperative human play, in which case they may as well lose the Henchmen, giving the monsters an even footing in all but superior numbers is balance that's taking away any hope of the player winning.

I like a challenge and diversity. I stopped playing the Ele because he was dull at the beginning of the game, and took up a Necro. I change the skills around to fit the challenge. I returned to the Ele after the changes a while back, reducing the costs of spells for example, and left the Necro as my 'Guild' character while I play my Ele as my solo character. I've mixed up spells, using Earth Magic against the White Mantle, and Water Magic in some circumstances. That's been good so far. But always there's been a tactic to use, a skill selection, that enables one to get past an area or mission. It's been that imbalance that means success. So far everyone has accepted the fact. They've agreed that using certain tactics and skill combos is the key to success. My original point wasn't so much that the changes have made things hard, but that in the long term too much balancing is bad. The day when everything you do is cancelled out by the enemy, and everything they do is cancelled out by you, is the day of stalemate and no fun. Hence my point that ANet need to be careful about balancing the game too much to make it even. Balancing should be about creating situations that favour one technique and skill set over another, and having the player find and exploit those, whilst also providing the necessary skills that a player can find the best solution from what's available to them. If GW is going to pit an Ele/Mo or something else with 7 level 20 henchies against 20 lvl 22 Ice Imps, it needs to ensure that progress can be made by selecting from the current set of skills, and that means providing a way one player with 8 skills can get the upper hand. That means ensuring an imbalance of power in the player's favour.

Shifty Geezer · Nov 13, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

I'm still using the small fire AOE cause that's all I have for Aoe.

I'm not going for that leet max damage fast killer farmer, that everyone seems to think everyone else does. I'm going for a range of fun skills, untill i get tired or overpowered for the area of the map that I'm in, then I'll work on crawling my way to the next town, or hitch a short ride with a runner for 1k, if I just can't manage to do it with the mentally handicapped henchies.
I play for fun a couple hours a day when I have the time.
I'm certainly not the guy to go look for max power builds on websites. The most I'll do is browse skills for any given class, so I can see if I'd want to try it.

You're just like me in this respect. There's different types of gamers playing this game. Some of us only put in a few hourse every once in while. I've had the game a few months and haven't completed it yet. I see people taling about stupid amounts of money who can buy all and any skills, get runner sto areas etc. but I do none of that. I just work my way through, looking for a fun challenge. Perhaps the biggest problem here is Anet trying to appeal to several different types of players, and the changes they make for the benefit of some players only harms others' experience?

Kais Unduli · Nov 13, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

I started a new elementalist just before the new patch came out, and I have absolutely no desire to delete her now, just because a bunch of people whine because the AI was improved. I'm actually looking forward to the challenge of finding ways to herd monsters into my AoE spells.

Torment · Nov 13, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

That is one reason to move, I listed several viable reasons to tough it out, all applicable to one or several monsters.

I'm not talking about game design, I'm talking about a theoretical evil wizard or god. You missed that boat entirely. Here, let me repost that one point.
Obviously none of these creatures are just natural evolutions, magic had an influence, maybe it just mutated, whatever the case, they got twisted in some form or another. I'm using story, well established pseudo mythology from many works of fiction to illustrate my point. If you don't understand that, I say dragon, you think big lizard with wings, blows fire(or the oriental version). Well there's a common concept about vampire, they drink blood.
None of this is real, but it's commonly accepted that's the way these creatures would be if they existed.
"Furthermore, a magically created creature is not likely created with self preservation in mind. Take some elemental. All they do is wander around till you show up. they don't eat, they don't find shelter. Most monsters, in any sci fi or fantasy world, are basically creations programmed to kill.
They are minions, basically, from some things as high up as gods. They are programmed to kill.
So, in almost most past fantasy writings, the former AI of these monsters is held more true to the storyline in how they were created.
Programmer(or evil god)
HHmm, if I make a hundred of these creatures, with claws and big teeth, well, i'm going to make them as ferocious as possible. I'm not going to program them with anything else, why should I?
Most any evil power in any story, thinks it's invincible and this gets passed on to it's minions, and that is it's weakness."

Exactly, thank you. I guess I didn't go into enough detail when I mentioned books like Lord of the Rings and the Shannara series. Evil relies on numbers and power and NOT Tactics. The exception would be the bosses.

Pevil Lihatuh · Nov 13, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

heh interesting thread. I've skimmed most of it but I will read it all. Just as a comment to the last post though:

Why doesn't someone ask Anet, as the creators of the races in GW, whether these are 'dumb power-loving evils' or if they're the smart tactics kind?

Evil may not always rely on Tactics, but some does or we wouldn't have Evil Geniuses (Genii?)

entropy · Nov 13, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWGuru

if this is here to stay I'll be playing more PvE...and I'm sure im not the only PvP player with that attitude

Lol Im a pvp player btw I just don't have the time to do missoins anymore.

Schorny · Nov 23, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

I don't think that you should have to change the way you play if you've found something you liked, because other people abused it. Figure out a way to catch the people that are doing the abusing and ban them.

So if you like to abuse something it is ok? Only if you abuse it for abusings sake it's a banable offense?

Quote:

I'm only arguing this patch because the main site advertises:
"allowing you to create specialized characters or to have fun experimenting with profession combinations, skills, and attributes until you create the hero that suits you best."

Exactly this is happening now. You are now able to use a water ele in PvE. Isn't that the choice they promised. You are now _able_ to move away from fire. You can still play fire AoE, I know my Ele is either smiter or fire ele and it works nice. And yes, all of my fire skills are AoE damage.

Quote:

7 months in roughly, and some people are forced to restructure something they found that suited them best. That's hardly supportive of players that paid 50$(or however much) after reading many great reviews. 3 weeks after I get the game, and it's whole design is altered by one little trigger.

Whole design? Comeon, just 2 skills are affected: firestorm (and I never understood why people were using it) and Meteor Shower.

I could understand if you would complain about smiting - because smiting is now too overpowered. But a little change to 2 skills isn't really a devastating break in the whole design.

The problem I see with this update is that AoE is a bit too strong now, especially smiting. This should be fixed.

@all: please read ensign's posts again. they say all that needs to be said